Towing Confusing, Seeking Wisdom

[AK Bob]

Not for a diesel that has a lot of options. Remember, a 3/4 ton truck(up until this year) has a 10k GVWR. Payload = GVWR - weight of the vehicle.
My current 2016 Ram 2500 Mega Cab Limited CTD has a payload of just under 1800lbs. Crazy, right?
I bought a 2500 thinking it would be great for towing the Raptor 300MP I bought.....NOT!!
I mean, it pulls and stops it fine but I know I am close to the 6500lbs RAWR, way over on payload which also means I'm way over my GVWR with trailer hooked up.

To the OP, it's actually really simple if you're going by the book.
GVWR = max total weight of either TV or trailer
GCWR = Max combined weight of both TV and trailer
Payload = Pin or tongue weight + weight of any people or cargo in the TV. This is where a 3/4 ton is barely better than a 1/2 ton truck, due to 10k GVWR(until this year).
RAWR = Manufacturer's max rear axle load capability
FAWR = Manufacturer's max front axle load capability
Capability = RAWR + FAWR

My setup(weight police please don't blast me, I am looking for 3500 as I type):
TV GVWR of 10k lbs - Truck weight of 8170lbs = 1830lbs of payload
Trailer empty 12,800lbs and 2800lbs on the pin. My pin weight alone puts me 1k lbs over payload of the TV and that's empty. Trailer GVWR is 16.5k lbs. At that weight I would expect pin load to be 3400-3500lbs since it's a toy hauler and garage weight will actually take weight off of the pin load. I tow with all tanks empty to keep weight down.

In my 1 year of towing this Raptor 300MP I have concluded a few things from observation and conversation at racetracks and campgrounds.

1. Weight measurements and understanding of them is all over the place and few actually know how to determine this. Of course people that are in the now are prob laughing at my setup and weights.

2. Dealers/ Salesman will tell you your truck is fine up to you max towing rate, regardless of any other numbers.

3. Again, almost all of the people out there have no clue or understanding of the weights and laws.

I just wish I knew more before I bought this truck. I would've definitely gone with a 3500. I am currently looking, just unsure if I am gonna make the jump to a dually or not at this point in time. Of course I did the "spark plug upgrade" and am planning to do some others shortly so I will have to put this truck back to stock to sell it.

Thanks, nice write up and explanation.


2014 RAM 3500 (Aisin) 3.73 4X4 Limited Crew Cab Long Bed DRW. Oil Bypass Filter, 50 Gallon auxiliary fuel tank.

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[Lopie]

Not for a diesel that has a lot of options. Remember, a 3/4 ton truck(up until this year) has a 10k GVWR. Payload = GVWR - weight of the vehicle.
My current 2016 Ram 2500 Mega Cab Limited CTD has a payload of just under 1800lbs. Crazy, right?
I bought a 2500 thinking it would be great for towing the Raptor 300MP I bought.....NOT!!
I mean, it pulls and stops it fine but I know I am close to the 6500lbs RAWR, way over on payload which also means I'm way over my GVWR with trailer hooked up.

To the OP, it's actually really simple if you're going by the book.
GVWR = max total weight of either TV or trailer
GCWR = Max combined weight of both TV and trailer
Payload = Pin or tongue weight + weight of any people or cargo in the TV. This is where a 3/4 ton is barely better than a 1/2 ton truck, due to 10k GVWR(until this year).
RAWR = Manufacturer's max rear axle load capability
FAWR = Manufacturer's max front axle load capability
Capability = RAWR + FAWR

My setup(weight police please don't blast me, I am looking for 3500 as I type):
TV GVWR of 10k lbs - Truck weight of 8170lbs = 1830lbs of payload
Trailer empty 12,800lbs and 2800lbs on the pin. My pin weight alone puts me 1k lbs over payload of the TV and that's empty. Trailer GVWR is 16.5k lbs. At that weight I would expect pin load to be 3400-3500lbs since it's a toy hauler and garage weight will actually take weight off of the pin load. I tow with all tanks empty to keep weight down.

In my 1 year of towing this Raptor 300MP I have concluded a few things from observation and conversation at racetracks and campgrounds.

1. Weight measurements and understanding of them is all over the place and few actually know how to determine this. Of course people that are in the now are prob laughing at my setup and weights.

2. Dealers/ Salesman will tell you your truck is fine up to you max towing rate, regardless of any other numbers.

3. Again, almost all of the people out there have no clue or understanding of the weights and laws.

I just wish I knew more before I bought this truck. I would've definitely gone with a 3500. I am currently looking, just unsure if I am gonna make the jump to a dually or not at this point in time. Of course I did the "spark plug upgrade" and am planning to do some others shortly so I will have to put this truck back to stock to sell it.

I too went from a 2500 to a 3500 DRW.

I was towing a 35’ TT with golf cart behind that.

Decided the safer way to go would be a toy hauler.

So we went to a 40’ 5er Vengeance.

Pin weight depends on what’s in the garage(golf cart or RZR).

We then decided to go 3500 DRW for the safety (GVWR) aspect of it and what a difference it makes.

No white knuckle moments with the dually.

It’s actually a pleasure to drive while towing the 5er.

Braking, handling, passing, even in storms (we all caught now and again) - hands down the best move we have made in the camping game was the 3500.


‘17 Laramie MC 4x4 DRW, Blessed by DRD, Grid heater delete, Bulletproof 68 kit, ATS thermo bypass, Mud Flaps

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[BubbaJo]

Not for a diesel that has a lot of options. Remember, a 3/4 ton truck(up until this year) has a 10k GVWR. Payload = GVWR - weight of the vehicle.
My current 2016 Ram 2500 Mega Cab Limited CTD has a payload of just under 1800lbs. Crazy, right?
I bought a 2500 thinking it would be great for towing the Raptor 300MP I bought.....NOT!!
I mean, it pulls and stops it fine but I know I am close to the 6500lbs RAWR, way over on payload which also means I'm way over my GVWR with trailer hooked up.

To the OP, it's actually really simple if you're going by the book.
GVWR = max total weight of either TV or trailer
GCWR = Max combined weight of both TV and trailer
Payload = Pin or tongue weight + weight of any people or cargo in the TV. This is where a 3/4 ton is barely better than a 1/2 ton truck, due to 10k GVWR(until this year).
RAWR = Manufacturer's max rear axle load capability
FAWR = Manufacturer's max front axle load capability
Capability = RAWR + FAWR

My setup(weight police please don't blast me, I am looking for 3500 as I type):
TV GVWR of 10k lbs - Truck weight of 8170lbs = 1830lbs of payload
Trailer empty 12,800lbs and 2800lbs on the pin. My pin weight alone puts me 1k lbs over payload of the TV and that's empty. Trailer GVWR is 16.5k lbs. At that weight I would expect pin load to be 3400-3500lbs since it's a toy hauler and garage weight will actually take weight off of the pin load. I tow with all tanks empty to keep weight down.

In my 1 year of towing this Raptor 300MP I have concluded a few things from observation and conversation at racetracks and campgrounds.

1. Weight measurements and understanding of them is all over the place and few actually know how to determine this. Of course people that are in the now are prob laughing at my setup and weights.

2. Dealers/ Salesman will tell you your truck is fine up to you max towing rate, regardless of any other numbers.

3. Again, almost all of the people out there have no clue or understanding of the weights and laws.

I just wish I knew more before I bought this truck. I would've definitely gone with a 3500. I am currently looking, just unsure if I am gonna make the jump to a dually or not at this point in time. Of course I did the "spark plug upgrade" and am planning to do some others shortly so I will have to put this truck back to stock to sell it.

I always forget about the loaded up trucks having lower payloads. the one was one of many reasons we ditched my old ecoboost.

It was fully loaded, but had a payload of only 1202lbs.

With a topper, my fat butt in the driver seat, two car seats in the back, with two kiddos, my wife in the front, and a 65lb dog and cooler in the back seat we were over payload with my 4500lb camper behind it.

I tried looking up my payload for my truck (just a SLT) but i couldn't find it via the site listed above..

Said my vin wasn't long enough?

Even though I copied it 100% LOL.

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[mpless]

I always forget about the loaded up trucks having lower payloads. the one was one of many reasons we ditched my old ecoboost.

It was fully loaded, but had a payload of only 1202lbs.

With a topper, my fat butt in the driver seat, two car seats in the back, with two kiddos, my wife in the front, and a 65lb dog and cooler in the back seat we were over payload with my 4500lb camper behind it.

I tried looking up my payload for my truck (just a SLT) but i couldn't find it via the site listed above..

Said my vin wasn't long enough?

Even though I copied it 100% LOL.

Same problem with my fathers 2020 3500 VIN.

Must be a bug on their end.

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[mpless]

Been doing a lot more digging, as curiosity will be the death of me. I have been thinking, which is also quite dangerous LOL.

*Numbers Reference 2016 Ram 2500 Trailer Towing Chart – SAE J2807 Compliant*
2016 Ram 2500 Mega Cab Short Box 4x4

2500 6.4L Hemi has a payload of 2,910 and can tow 15,240
2500 6.7L Cummins has a payload of 2,030 and can tow 15,540

If the only difference between the two is the weight of the engine, which is supported by the front of the truck, then would it not stand to reason that the payload for the 6.7L version would be the same (+-).

The limiting factor appears to be the 10K GVWR keeping the payload down, as many have suggested.

Thank you for that, i always like to check everything. It is the internet after all.

To support the idea from a different approach, I found compelling information.

Comparing.2500 vs 3500

Keeping in mind: All front suspensions for the two trucks are the same (meaning live front axles and coil springs) except for the Power Wagon, which adds an electronically disconnecting sway bar.

The rear of the 2500 has a five-link coil spring setup with an optional supplemental air spring for extra load carrying capacity.

The rear of the 3500 has leaf springs, also with an optional supplemental airbag.

Reference article - https://www.ramforum.com/threads/ram...cummins.54746/ **begging forgiveness if forum reference is not allowed**

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[Stewbuntu]

Being new to owning a RAM 2500 personally.

I am a bit confused to the towing numbers.

I came from a Tacoma so 5th wheel, gooseneck where never an option LOL.

Below are the number I see when I use RAMS website for my truck by VIN.

I've been looking into campers and utility trailers getting ideas as to needs and wants.

If i follow the 20 percent of the gross trailer weight for tongue weight then I'm not left with much to stay at/below the 1600 lbs. (8000 lbs x 20% = 1600 lbs).

Am I going about this the right way, I'm wanting to keep this safe and gain a better understanding.

From the looks of it trailers are following a 20% rule and Ram is following a 10% rule, but looks can be deceiving.

Thanks in advance.

https://www.ramtrucks.com/towing-guide.html

Attachment 11701

You will be surprised. I have a 16500lb 5th and I thought I would need air bags. I had it delivered by a friend. I had to move it across my friends 70 acres that we use for hunting. Anyway I didn't have time for the air bag install and was really worried. Turns out it didn't even sag the back. So then I took it 4 hrs away and had no issues on that camping trip. I'm over weight but with the 6 trailer brakes working at #7 setting there is no issue towing, love it! #5 worked fine too but I wanted a lot of stopping power to be safer and rely less on my truck. FL is flat tho. I towed a 2019 36ft grand design reflection from texas. I think it was 12500# no issues for 1800+ miles. I wouldn't tow more than my 16500# trailer but, the max I have heard is a guy doing a couple thousand miles with 22k trailer.

Use the exhuast brake and tow/haul button or you will ruin your tranny.

The difference between our trucks and the 3500 is only 1 extra leaf spring. So bags would make up that difference in my opinion. I'm comfortable with what I am doing or even bags to make the difference, you may not be and that is okay, but just letting you know what they are capable of.

I also never get less than E rated tires. I think good year duratracs are E rated now at 65psi. F is even better for a single wheel vs dually. Fyi don't put your sensors in if you are running 65psi or the dash computer will always warn you. Without the sensors it just had the orange slippery road symbol/light. But 65 psi is a lot smoother and the weight was still 4000#+ if I remember correctly, better than Nitro or toyo. Get a 6 wheel RV sensor system for your dash. 2 sensors on your rear wheels, 4 on the RV wheels. It will warn of hi/low temp, slow leaks, low psi, high psi etc.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PP55QF9..._SdgEFbCH7PVH6

You can also always counter balance with water in your tanks. Don't lift your truck up, but 500lbs would help. At 8lbs per gallon you only need 62 gallons. So fill your 50 gallon water tank and you would have better tongue weights and still have a enough pushing down on your truck without a major bouncing bc the back of the 5th will only change elevation a couple inches or so. Or coolers etc gear behind the rear 5th axels. Don't do 1000lbs tho, if you lift up your truck while bouncing around you will loose traction and flip.



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[Stewbuntu]

Not for a diesel that has a lot of options. Remember, a 3/4 ton truck(up until this year) has a 10k GVWR. Payload = GVWR - weight of the vehicle.
My current 2016 Ram 2500 Mega Cab Limited CTD has a payload of just under 1800lbs. Crazy, right?
I bought a 2500 thinking it would be great for towing the Raptor 300MP I bought.....NOT!!
I mean, it pulls and stops it fine but I know I am close to the 6500lbs RAWR, way over on payload which also means I'm way over my GVWR with trailer hooked up.

To the OP, it's actually really simple if you're going by the book.
GVWR = max total weight of either TV or trailer
GCWR = Max combined weight of both TV and trailer
Payload = Pin or tongue weight + weight of any people or cargo in the TV. This is where a 3/4 ton is barely better than a 1/2 ton truck, due to 10k GVWR(until this year).
RAWR = Manufacturer's max rear axle load capability
FAWR = Manufacturer's max front axle load capability
Capability = RAWR + FAWR

My setup(weight police please don't blast me, I am looking for 3500 as I type):
TV GVWR of 10k lbs - Truck weight of 8170lbs = 1830lbs of payload
Trailer empty 12,800lbs and 2800lbs on the pin. My pin weight alone puts me 1k lbs over payload of the TV and that's empty. Trailer GVWR is 16.5k lbs. At that weight I would expect pin load to be 3400-3500lbs since it's a toy hauler and garage weight will actually take weight off of the pin load. I tow with all tanks empty to keep weight down.

In my 1 year of towing this Raptor 300MP I have concluded a few things from observation and conversation at racetracks and campgrounds.

1. Weight measurements and understanding of them is all over the place and few actually know how to determine this. Of course people that are in the now are prob laughing at my setup and weights.

2. Dealers/ Salesman will tell you your truck is fine up to you max towing rate, regardless of any other numbers.

3. Again, almost all of the people out there have no clue or understanding of the weights and laws.

I just wish I knew more before I bought this truck. I would've definitely gone with a 3500. I am currently looking, just unsure if I am gonna make the jump to a dually or not at this point in time. Of course I did the "spark plug upgrade" and am planning to do some others shortly so I will have to put this truck back to stock to sell it.

The only difference between a 2500 and 3500 is one leaf spring and a sticker with different tow numbers printed on it and stuck inside your door.

FACT

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[michaelrc51]

The only difference between a 2500 and 3500 is one leaf spring and a sticker with different tow numbers printed on it and stuck inside your door.

FACT

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Actually, that’s incorrect.
My 2500 has coil springs, the 3500 has leafs. Other than that the trucks are basically identical aside from the door stickers.

Those stickers are the legal guidelines.



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[Stewbuntu]

Actually, that’s incorrect.
My 2500 has coil springs, the 3500 has leafs. Other than that the trucks are basically identical aside from the door stickers.

Those stickers are the legal guidelines.

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Not sure what year they swapped to springs.

I'm leafs.

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[Stewbuntu]

Not sure when they swapped to springs

Research if anything else is different between the 2500 with springs and 3500 if the same year (axels, diff, brakes, etc) if not and all the parts on websites are the same, add air bags to get your strength just like the extra leaf in a 3500 does for me.

If its all the same, then the load carrying capacity of the springs is the only thing changing your sticker pay load. Swap springs with 3500 springs.

Pretty crazy how extra leaf springs is the only thing different for me and tow rating goes up 4400lbs for single wheel. Seems like a scam to get people to buy 3500s. I get dual wheel but that's a huge towing difference for just adding a leaf.



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